Setsuken slides back into the host’s chair this week, as Notaku takes on the question of ownership where fiction is concerned. There’s also a full slate of news, a haiku challenge, and even a bit of manga talk.
We’re now caught up on the backlog of questions, so if you have anything you’d like us to answer on the air, please let me know!
TIMECODES:
Introduction & Feedback – 0:00:09
What We’re Watching – 00:09:47
The Anime News – 00:21:26
Topic of the Week – 00:58:33
Haiku Challenge – 01:33:43
Listener Questions – 01:36:06
Blastrix
October 7, 2020 at 10:30 pmI want to challenge you guys on your bit about who owns the story 😀 I think the issue is maybe a bit more complex than “is it the author or the audience who owns the story?”. The truth is that audience can have more or less of a say on an author, and it can work to the benefit or detriment of the story. But I think that the audience always influences the story albeit sometimes to a lesser degree.
Also, I think there can be different interpretations of the word “own”.
Is it how much an audience can or should be able to “influence” a story?
Is it whether an audience can or should interpret a story that is at odds with what the author says outside of the story? (ie. in interviews, twitter etc.)
If it is how much an audience can influence a story, I think sales is an important factor and can result in both better, worse or just mediocre stories. I’ll try to use anime/manga examples to stay on topic as much as possible 😛
1) There might be a disconnect with how a character or the world is with how an author wants them to be. This feels jarring to the section of the audience that percieves the world differently. It tends to look more like a poorly constructed fantasy of the author, than how humans act in real life. Sometime this might be because the work targets a different segment of the audience. Light novels tend to fall into this a lot for me. Light novels often contain male otakus with no charm rescuing the world and somehow has a harem of females. These kinds of series most definitely reflects and resonates with a lot of otaku however. Hence they “own”/influence the narrative choices in light novels.
2) Sometimes a story contains a message that the author is not aware of, but it resonates with a lot of the audience. When the author moves away from that message, it will put a lot of viewers off. High budget movies often does test screenings to see what works well for the audience. The ending of Yesterday wo Utatte is a good example of how a story can take a jarring turn, (I know that the ending was anime original, btw). The important message, which makes the series special, is held by the audience and not the writer of the anime in this case. If the author however notices it, for example with test screenings, it would probably do them well to lean in on that message. And maybe make a better story too.
If by “own” we mean that an audience can or should be able to interpret a story that is at odds with the author, I think that is hard to argue against. Once a fictional work is released the author is really not able to control how it is percieved.
Here are 2 examples:
3) Not all authors have a good grasp at how an audience experiences a story. Take Made in Abyss. The anime can be explained away as somewhat more innocent, but after having brought some of the tankoubons I was so grossed out that I had to throw them away again. There really cannot be any doubt about Tsukushis fetishistic intentions in the manga. I do not think these scenes are meant as innocently as presented in the anime, which is clearly at odds with the author. But that does not mean people cannot think of the narrative as something other than putting children in gross situations. Which a lot of people do. (Notice I’m not saying whether this is good or bad. It is just an example of people owning a narrative)
4) The authors themselves might change in values and maturity during the course of the story, or retrofit established story elements to align it with a new vision the author has. Not only that, but the values of society is also changing around them over time. Changes in messaging happens often in long running series. There are many examples of this, and you can probably think of some better than I. For me Berserk is the greatest example of this, perhaps because it is so old and still running. It was an 80s sword and sorcery story, which fit perfectly in the zeitgeist back then. Kentaro Miura started making Berserk in his early 20s, and we know from interviews that he just wanted to make something gritty, dark and cool. Today he is in his 50s and the manga is much more about family dynamics with a more hopeful tone. And this has made people drop it. Now I love these changes and Miura is probably so old and succesful that he probably doesnt mind anymore whether it have mass appeal or not. However some people still recommends reading the arcs they like, and treat that as the entire story. And I dont blame them, since it has changed so much since then. They might as well be different stories with different messaging. I think this is again a good example of people taking control over the story in some form.
Anyways, good episode and I love the different views both of you bring. It works really well 🙂 (And hey I wrote here again. Maybe I am becoming a regular hah :D)
Guardian Enzo
October 7, 2020 at 10:38 pmAre we really talking about perception though? People can interpret a story however they want but I don’t really think of that as ownership in the way we were discussing it.
This is one of those topics that you can argue about ad infinitum and never really settle on any answers, because the terms can be defined so many different ways. It’s an interesting point for discussion but it doesn’t really (IMO) allow for that discussion to be resolved in a satisfying way. Nevertheless, I appreciate your thoughtful comment very much.
Blastrix
October 7, 2020 at 11:49 pmI think you are talking about both perception and influence in your discussion of story ownership. That is why I chose to split them up and discuss them seperately. Even if you yourself did not pick up on it. And the ironic thing is that you will probably have a hard time altering my perception of your discussion, even if you were among the authors hah 😀
There is most definitely an interesting discussion in who owns the story after it is made, but it is a hard one to have because the terms have loose definitions. The post was mostly to give some food for the brain with a different perspective. I’m not asking you to spend the time on each of my points 🙂
Blastrix
October 8, 2020 at 1:25 amI have a question for you guys, which is something that I often see discussed in manga communities, but less so in anime:
Is there any anime which you like mostly based on its art and style and not so much the story?
Guardian Enzo
October 8, 2020 at 12:23 pmWe can answer that one in the next podcast for sure, thanks for the submission.
Steve
October 8, 2020 at 9:21 amSomething that could be fantastic an an anime, and the greatest American fantasy novel: Little, Big by John Crowley. His earlier novel, Engine Summer, would also work well.
BluBlu
October 8, 2020 at 8:47 pmI should say that I was a bit lost by the topic at the beginning and maybe that explains also “Blatrix” comment. I don’t know… But at the same time, this isn’t something easy. I did not really want to react as I am afraid that I will be long as readers/viewers commenting/influencing is something I am very sensitive with, especially regarding the twitter era.
At the end of day, for what both of you were saying about readers/viewers influencing the author, I mean, the “vote with your wallet” is indeed the obvious answer. Actually, I would be even more radical, if you don’t like it, just get out of here. Maybe I will be a bit out of track but that is because this is something I am very sensitive with and makes me like to call people “masochistic hypocrites” XD. I mean, I never understand for instance how people can watch/read something until the end while bashing it for almost 2/3 of it.
There are so many anime, so many manga or so many other activities that why making yourself suffer apart lying to yourself and actually denying that you still like something. And I found funny that “Bleach” was named as in a French forum which I am part of, that was the show which illustrates it perfectly that thing to me. I have always been baffled to the answer of people when I asked them: “why are you still reading it if every week you have to complain (rightfully in my opinion as I dropped “Bleach” too) about Kubo”? Answer: “Ah yeah but I started it so I want to know the end”…
Sorry but for me, that is a disease XD. But again, I don’t want people to behave like me. And again, I am not talking about that people should not give critics, but for instance, giving less than the average, calling snoozfest or whatever something that you watched/read until the end? Sorry but I think this era of illegal means to view/read things gave people an easy life. And with twitter era…things are even more out of control, especially with one of the most dangerous genre for that thing…”Romantic/harem series”! Because if an author ends the series on a couple that people do not like (and of course, there will always be people not liking, that’s logic), he better not have twitter or being tough. Best recent example is the author of “Domestic Girlfriend/Domestic no Kanojo” being insulted/threatened by foreigners for the ending of the series (can even find articles on ANN about it).
Anyway, just to say yes the authors should stick to their ideas, audience criticize if they want but drop it if you cannot bear it. I mean, the author of “Ahiru no Sora” has always been crystal clear about it. He stopped drawing cover illustration for artistic reasons, some people stayed, some left (but very few). He later made a very disruptive scenaristic decision (no no, this is way far from where the anime stopped), well sales which were very high (almost 400K), dropped. But he stuck to his guns and assumed it and even in the volume preface already warned people about what they were about to read. On that matter, yeah, readers influenced manga but I want to stress that this is really at the beginning of the series as, they want to be successful, in particular with popular magazines (and I won’t blame them). But when series become popular, many authors tend to stick more to what they want to say (for the better or worst).
Sorry for that long comment( and I even shortened all my thoughts XD). Actually, about what I wrote in the first part, it brings to something that I always been surprised of regarding you Enzo. That is how did you managed to make a full review of “Ace of Diamond” while it was obvious at a moment that you did not like it? This is so in contrast with what you did with many other sport series that I never understood why (maybe you neither XD).
More a question for the podcast. I was wondering if you could tell us about the streaming offers/networks in Japan. Because (even though we are not able to use them where we are), it appeared to me that it seem to be quite a LOT and in many cases, the stuff of “exclusivity” that we see in the West does not seem to exist. I even read this week that in the newtype magazine promoting the upcoming movie of Kimetsu that the producer made verything possible to have the anime first season being streamed on…20 services!!? (In France there are not even 10 streaming services Lol)
Talking about Tite Kubo, did you or Setsuken took a look at “Burn the Witch”?
AAAaaa
October 9, 2020 at 7:31 amShuhei Yabuta tweeted that he’s on the CG team for Attack on Titan… but also said that he’s working on his own title. Hoping it’s Vinland Saga S2.
https://twitter.com/yabshu55/status/1312596739266760705
The Pokemon music video was amazing — there was so much detail and so many game references in each frame. Including Stand By Me, which is referenced at the very beginning of the game: https://imgur.com/a/yMedzxt
And I know it’s not Bones, but Pokemon Twilight Wings looks pretty awesome. I haven’t watched it yet, but Shingo Yamashita always gets my attention. Sakugabooru wrote a nice piece on it recently: https://blog.sakugabooru.com/2020/09/26/twilight-wings-the-pokemon-generation/
Guardian Enzo
October 9, 2020 at 7:42 amYeah, I saw that Yabuta tweet. I’m certainly hoping the same thing, or it’s gonna be a while at best.